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Od Studios


2021Aug11 Digital Domain, Sony Pictures, R&H, Method . . . these are among the studios that Marc Horsfield has worked for - doing the gamut of creative work from designing unified pipelines to lighting to building creative teams and more. It was therefore only a matter of time for Marc to start his own studio. Join us to hear his story of co-founding the Vancouver-based Od Studios.

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Webinar Transcript . . .

Hello everybody! Thank you so much for joining us today with GridMarkets - yet again bringing you some of the most innovative people and studios in the VFX and animation space. My name is Sadie Groom. I'm the Managing Director of Bubble Agency. a very long time ago I was the Public Relations Manager for Softimage. But that was obviously a very long time ago - but still a huge Softimage fan for any of those people out there as well so this evening we are going to be Mark Ross who's the co-founder of GridMarkets he's going to be giving us an overview followed by anu Ojar from Oracle and then lastly our star guest who is mark corsfield from odd studios who's the co-founder so i'll introduce you all to those people later on so before we get into it with mark we have a couple of other presentations so firstly we have one from GridMarkets’ co-founder and the man who made this webinar come to life which is mark ross mark will take us through the power of GridMarkets followed by a short presentation from a new measure from Oracle so over to you Mark thanks Sadie thanks everyone for joining I'm going to give you a just a very brief overview of GridMarkets what we do and how we do it so we're a cloud rendering and simulation service we support all the major 3d packages cinema 4d Houdini Maya 3ds max blender and nuke and the major renders both CPU and GPU renders that go along with that the submission process is super simple you just decide how many machines you want to run on what the configuration of those machines are you submit directly from your 3d software so there's nothing new to learn we provide a plugin which integrates into your 3d software so it becomes then a menu option within that software that you use to launch to us and it's a pay-as-you-go model you paid by the machine hour there's one machine hour cost it covers everything no no other costs so very simple payment model the platform was built and supported by artists so we've gotten lots of input from folks like you that have shaped our our technical roadmap so hopefully you'll find it very easy to use it's being used by now over 4 000 customers in over 90 different countries and the GridMarkets team is located all around the world so we're able to provide you 24 hour by 7 support because of that arrangement to get started it's a very simple process you you go to the sign up page which you can see the url url for in the bottom left corner you create an account which is free and then you download something called envoy which is there's three different versions of it depending on what your operating system choice is an envoy will contain the the tools that you'll use to be able to submit to us inside the envoy download are the plugins for the 3d software that you're maybe interested in say for example Houdini or Maya or whatever so you would install that that plug-in for that 3d software and then envoy is the tool that is responsible for getting your files to and from our cloud so once you download that you install the plugin let's say Houdini for example this slide is showing that you've installed the Houdini plugin and then your project files would be uploaded to GridMarkets via envoy and then we would run your job using one of the renders that you know that we support so it's very simple you just decide your machine configuration and your machine count and off it goes after that is submitted you'll get a real-time dashboard which looks like this and it will show you the status of any of your submissions how far along they are in the process which ones are completed you also have job management control from here so if you want to stop a job or restart a job you can do that easily from this from this console and then as your frames are completed they're downloaded to your your workstation so you don't have to wait for the frames to complete they just come come to the download folder that you specified and that's it if you want to give it a shot you can have a free trial go to sign up we're offering a 15 discount for anyone who signs up use this webinar promotion card code there 2021 august 11th webinar and and you'll get a 15 discount on any of the credits that you purchase that's that's all from me so back to you Sadie thanks mark as always super informative and impressive to see and I will definitely take up the free trial offer so the success of a studio is only as good as its security as we all know and as mentioned earlier we're joined by anu ajar who's senior manager of global hpc cloud engineering at Oracle have you got that right so pleasingly without further ado tell us a little bit more about who Oracle and the services that you offer good to meet you siri and good morning and good evening everybody on the call today so my name is anu oja I'm a sa introduce myself I'm a global senior manager for Oracle cloud engineering team I run a team we call it high performance computing and some people might call it super computers so interesting enough you know GridMarkets runs on a platform as you being a VFX artist so behind the scene the infrastructure is being provided by r2 cloud so just to give you a brief background on or the cloud we have built a gen 2 cloud or a generation 2 cloud so there are a lot of other hyperscalers today in the market they are a generation one hyperscalers we built this cloud maybe around five to six years back and when we started building our gen 2 cloud there was three primary tenant behind that we have to build it from get go that is we got all the you know previous experience from the other hyper spillers so we were able to build a cloud that is totally designed to perform to give price performance and then security I believe this is the three main energy price performance and security and we were able to build the gen 2 cloud so when mark and his team were looking for to run their platform on a cloud provider in this case they choose Oracle cloud because I think the most important of the tree was security so I'm not going to take too much time you can read this slide but just if you want to take away from my slide there are three main things that order cloud hasn't built on security first approach the security is building it is always turned on by default you cannot switch off security just to do something on this on our cloud and then there's no extra charges for it so what that means is we're providing a platform or infrastructure to our customers like read market in this case and customers like you like VFX artists who would be willing to put their media their files you know those are your crown jewels so you have to ensure that the ground drills as GridMarkets sticks it it has to be stored in a very secure way and r2 cloud is the provider behind the scene you know what we have done is we have built a lot of security controls across the cloud there are auto detection their auto remedy and you know we have a whole team of security folks behind the scene that we keep monitoring our entire infrastructure and everything is automated most of the cases right so that means as you put your crown jewel on GridMarkets we behind the scenario cloud make sure that that's been stored in the most safest place which is OCI that's it from my site if you have any questions on Oracle security or the cloud please feel free to ask questions thank you siri thank you so much name that was really interesting so now over to our main event I'm really pleased to welcome today Marc Horsfield founder of Vancouver basically effects and animation house odd studios mark's career a senior production technologist and VFX supervisor spans over 20 years with an impressive roster of credits including ant-man and the wasp black panther and guardians of the galaxy 2. all great films I'm sure you all agree so mark is now going to tell us a bit more about himself I'm going to ask him some questions but please feel free to ask us any which you can do using the q a box mark let's start from the beginning we wanted all the way back to the early 90s I think you're going to place the show reel first yeah and and then we can have a bit of a chat sounds good hi everyone I'm just going to share my i'll show you my reel lots of real work special great stuff yeah that was amazing well great real as well did you did you have a favorite of those mark no like asking what your favorite who your favorite child is sorry yeah I mean I guess you know as with anything probably the most recent right San Andreas was probably one of the the best I've watched it was at least it was the most fun and most challenging all at the same time yeah but yeah I feel like that was just because it was the most recent yeah the the recent memory yeah so you actually started life as a software developer so how when did you make the change into the animation of VFX world I always wanted to get into animation of VFX that was my my main goal and I think in when I was in still in high school I went to some AutoDesk expo and I was speaking to some you know I just went to random booths and was speaking to people and just asking how to get into the industry and at the time which was the early 90s everyone said you have to know how to program you have to be a software you have to program software because there were no tools so that was the and this was South Africa so there was no VFX industry back then but so that was it I went and got a programming diploma and then slowly over time worked my way into the industry and do you think you've always had that creative flair in you yeah I think I've known since I was probably about 11 or 12 that this is what I wanted to do it was either games or it was official effects right yeah so why did why not games why one not the other I don't I think you know it's probably around the time when toy story came out and then yeah one of those you know realizations that this could actually be a career that you could do and you can create something that looked active on screen and and you know that's where it went yeah and that's what you wanted to do so you've worked at some of the biggest studios in the industry including Sony image works digital domain black ginger method rhythm and hues I remember them all maybe from mainly from Siggraph parties in the old days what roles did you have at those facilities I mean I started life as a generalist because this was in South Africa so this was you know back in the day where you kind of did everything and you know I wanted to be an animator I think as everyone or most people do when they come into the industry but I got put into effects because of my programming background so you know I was the the person deigned to understand how Houdini works and so they dropped me on Houdini 0.9 whatever it was and and we went forward from there and so most of my career has been in effects and then just growing through from an effects artist to you know senior to a lead to a supervisor and then sequence supervisor and cg suit and working my way up to there to be effective so it so it really did evolve over time and did you get much training along the way how did you how did that path evolve training in in the industry yeah everything was on everything was on the job so this was late 90s when it started there was no I mean this was late 90s in South Africa of all things right so there were there were no colleges there was no training there was no barely any internet so everything was on the job training they dropped me on the box they said here's Houdini this is how you load it the guy is sitting next to you he knows how to use cd ask him all the questions you need and by the way here's a project we need a delivered in five weeks excellent thank you yeah exactly so how do you obviously done lots of varied roles and so how did that influence your understanding of the industry and influence your career I think you know most of my roles have been in effects generally speaking but because I had a generalist background you know that definitely gave me an understanding of the full pipeline and then I think you know my technical programming background gave me a sort of a wild interest in how everything worked and how everything flowed through the pipeline so you know in the larger studios I always had my hands or at least stuck my nose in other people's business I'd say and kind of paid attention to how things happened on the back end you know it wasn't just sit down and create shots and then go home kind of thing it was always like well how does this work and why why are these things this way and why were these decisions made and you know that kind of stuff so yeah yeah I mean did you have particular people in certain roles that you really looked up to when you were going through oh absolutely I mean most of the time I you know in my in the early days especially at Digital Domain and Sony this was it was a different time in the industry but yeah my the supervisors and the the people that were above me that gave me a chance they were amazing mentors you know and without even being mentors necessarily you know they didn't take me under their wing and mentor me but just just watching how they behaved and how they handled things and how they worked was probably the the finest education I could have received really yeah yeah so sometimes it happens you know that's what mentoring can happen by osmosis a bit can't it doesn't always need to be a set program or something that you need to be on yeah and I think it was great working at Digital Domain for my first sort of you know la based studio because they always had that kind of pirate ship mentality where they were like the rebels of the industry and it didn't really matter that you know I was the new guy you know I was I was the new guy it was once you were in you were part of the team and everyone treated you as part of the team and that was kind of the you know you were all together doing the thing that you were doing so it was very yeah that's great yeah and so were you where were you at this point geographically were you in that was last night that you said that was what you were actually in l.a it wasn't like yeah the remote world production like it is today wasn't there then was it no that was South Africa and then and then the dream from to leave South Africa was to go to l.a yeah yeah obviously might happen so so in addition to work on some of the biggest films tv shows and commercials in 1997 you founded odd force yep can you tell us a bit more about that please yeah so that was I mean Jason iverson and myself were the only two we used to joke which is probably an incorrect joke but it doesn't matter we joked about it anyway they were the only two Houdini users on the entire continent of africa so we were not very lonely and and our way to achieve that and to fix that problem was to create a website where we could get other people to send us stuff and or communicate with us so that we didn't feel quite so isolated and that was that was where it started we started with a way of sharing tools that was what the site was and then we opened the forum and then eventually it just became the forum that was the the main thing because and now we have I think 21 years worth of forum posts that have just always been there and never gone down and it's been amazing I've had tons of people who have who have come up to me in the industry and just thanked me for having the site because it's been there for them when they were the teenager and trying to figure out how to get an industry and asking stupid questions or whatever it was that they were doing and you know there was the forum and people were so willing to help and just there for them really to help them get in yeah yeah it's that amazing community feeling isn't there so it really helps and it's amazing how people don't necessarily know that that someone there is actually somebody behind starting one of these they just think they appear so that's amazing that you did that so talking a bit sort of more about what you're doing around today so obviously you've got this massive knowledge lots of different disciplines when did the idea of setting up your own studio start forming in your mind I think in 2008 my family and I went back to South Africa we left la we went back to South Africa and I started working for a small studio there was black ginger and you know we helped them rebuild their pipeline and move from windows to Linux so there was kind of that whole process of you know trying to to build the studio up I guess from an infrastructure point of view and it was around that time when I kind of had an inkling of a thought that I could do this for myself so I started building a business plan then and seeing if we could start a studio in South Africa unfortunately it was a couple years later that the the financial crisis hit South Africa so the work dried up my job went away and because there weren't many studios in South Africa I kind of left and went to Australia to work on so that died that died and then when I got to Vancouver we worked for Rhythm and Hughes and I was there through the bankruptcy but post-bankruptcy those of us who remained in the Vancouver studio to avoid being bored we decided to come up with our own animated projects so we made a couple of animated shorts and so that was you know another piece of the puzzle which was like well you know if we could just decide to do this then it's it's possible right if we can do this anyone can do this yeah and then the last piece of the puzzle was working at method where method was an interesting test case of a business and so I there was I was involved in a lot of executive level meetings as the head of production technology and so I could watch that all happen you know and see behind the curtain from a business side of things and so that then everything kind of all the pieces of the puzzle kind of gelled and I was like okay this is something I could probably do do you think you took bits of learning from all of those oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah it is always good to see someone else's business model isn't it and see what you like about it and what you're doing yeah totally and I mean I know this is the most naïve thought that every single business owner has ever thought which is well if they can do it so can I which is you know very naïve yeah I did it exactly the same here yeah and that's not necessarily true but you know willful ignorance I think is awful in these cases yeah what could possibly go wrong yeah exactly so so in 2019 old studios was born so when you started developing the pipeline what were your main concerns at that time so it's funny because I actually registered the corporation in 2016 and then I spent two years building a pipeline pre-launch I had there were friends of mine that I worked with before who started their own software companies so I engaged with them to build our pipeline and I guess the the the massive experiment that we're undertaking is we want to build a full high-end feature animation pipeline with you know a small team so really we want we want to be running with a small team of possibly up to 20 to 30 people you know artists running on the pipeline but we want that pipeline to be able to handle you know a 2 000 shot full length feature animation project so with all the asset management and everything that comes along with that and that's kind of the crazy thought that we have so yeah what so did you already have a roster work to get started with no no and it's great because my my business partner Jason Brewer he was so I you know we I registered the corporation built the pipeline and then didn't really know how to continue and then Jason joined in and he was kind of the impetus of you know giving me the kick to get me out of my comfort zone to actually launch the thing and we launched with us in a very small 900 square foot studio you know space in downtown Vancouver with two desks and one workstation and a laptop and we sat there staring at each other for a few weeks wondering what we've done with our lives yep emailed on that yeah do you think it made a difference starting it with somebody yeah oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah yeah otherwise would have just been me sitting in a room by myself wondering well yeah talking to the wall yeah so were there when you started were there particular types of projects that you wanted to work on I mean you mentioned features you know was that the that we were only going to do features or we do anything or no the design of at least the business model that we're trying to are trying to successfully implement really is to work on use visual effects as a vehicle you know be a VFX vendor and use the the income from that to build the feature animation site so really our ultimate goal is to develop our own ip write our own stories sell them and then you know and then make our own movies so so VFX has always been the vehicle that drives us there and pays for the development of the studio but yeah our gold idea is that we hire we hire artists and all of our staff and we build a culture from within of developing stories and telling stories and implementing stories and you know having artwork on the walls of all the stuff that we're doing in-house and and just trying to build that culture from day one and then you know hopefully hopefully get to the point where we can sell something or we can we can project which is a feature animation and then just go from there go from there yeah it sounds like you know from the culture that you're talking about the other stuff you've done in the past because it feels like community is a really big value for you yes yeah do you feel that we're building the team do you feel that those you know what what the main values being yeah I think so I mean you know I miss the old days of the industry I guess in some way right where when I my the first studio I started at was I think there were 12 of us and every single person who worked for the company came from a different background right there were yeah programmers there was some someone who used to work at the bank there was someone who works in the ad industry there was someone who was I think he works in the medical industry and everyone the only the common the common factor that joined us was a passion for the industry right we were just just fired up for everything so so building a team and and developing a culture is yeah is very important so if you find people who can who have the same interests I guess the same desires the same needs to create amazing things then yeah that's very important yeah yeah it's very important do you want to show us some of the reels oh sure yeah so I mean so we've been going since 2019 so this is our short but two-year real are they all from features or no that's a that's a mix of commercials tvs tv shows and there's one feature in there we've worked on a couple of features some of them haven't been released yet so we can't show them I do have a clip from a feature that we're currently working on that we did get permission to show that'd be amazing yeah that'd be great let's have a look so this was just as a as an intro we were approached for it's an independent football film and because it's independent they shot over I think a course of six or seven years and in in a series of shoots one of their axes was unavailable and so they just they shot with another one and so they came to us and they said can you do face replacements and we were like in our naïve optimism said sure we can so this is these are the clips of the facial placements that we were given permission to share excellent so the first this first clip is the original actor and then the next shot is the face replacement do you want to talk a bit about do you like to talk about how you did that yeah so that's well firstly that's a that's a movie called one heart so you should all go see it when it comes out yeah we used we use deep fakes for that which is I think the technology that everyone's using it's a wild ride you have to there's no documentation there's no anything there's some sort of random tutorials occasionally you know translated probably from Russian and it's just it's it's pretty crazy but the you know the software itself is phenomenal and it's you know we run the thing and then you you swap the face once you've done the training and I mean there's a lot of manual labor at first to get everything but once you do that you run the software and then you you swap the face and I mean you know you saw you saw the results of that but it was yeah when you first see it I'm like a being between the two and it's just unbelievable I can't see the difference yeah so do you think that will end up getting used more and more that technology and hopefully it gets us more projects yeah whether I want to do a ton of face once I'm not sure when you were when you were dreaming of your creative flair of being working in VFX that probably wasn't there was it well you know it's one of those things where we I mean we're using it it is cutting edge technology right it is on the forefront of the technological revolution that we're undergoing right now and so it's amazing to be able to have a project that does that that can help us with that so yeah mark what's up mention sorry say what was the software that you use if you can talk about it to to produce those results it was called deep deep fakes oh okay yeah I think or face actually you know what I'd have to look it up it's a face swap or something there's there's two there's two main ones and one of them has been forked to try and make it more palatable to the industry we didn't use that one we used the unpalatable one which has gone off include the weeds because it's more i guess it's more developed at least right yeah okay that's interesting so a question a non-tech question around the studio obviously you know we'll talk about the big facilities that in Jason worked in you know did this give you an idea of how you want to do things differently how you want to run the company how you want to be different and so if if so what were those things I think yeah I mean you know I've learned having worked at studios of every size right from you know 10 11 people all the way through to you know thousands of of of stuff right I mean rhythm and user had four offices worldwide I think I think they're two in two or three in india and then eventually and in la and from all of those I've I've learned I guess good things and bad things right there's there's there's positive lessons I've taken away that I would love to replicate there's things I was only rhythm and used for just over a year and this there's things I still miss about that studio and it was a tragedy when it all kind of went crashing definitely was yeah yeah and then there's other studios I worked out where there's a lot of like oh let's let's never do that you know kind of thing and so so yeah so it's it's really an amalgamation of everything that I've I've been through in my career and and taking all of those lessons and trying to build a studio that you know I guess takes care of the staff right what we want to do is we want we want people to have good lives we also want people to create things that have meaning we don't really necessarily want to work on in just any project that comes our way our ultimate desire would be to work on something that provides value both to everyone who watches it but also to everyone who works on it so yeah so that's kind of the the main thing but I mean you know I'm I'm everything from tech I have very strong experience everything from tech related all the way through the business so yes yeah I think as a business owner you you you're sort of head of hr finance I t creative client care yeah the whole thing online 12 hats I'm wearing at the moment yeah exactly good question about why are you set up in Vancouver and not South Africa or anywhere else honestly the the main impetus for Vancouver was that I never wanted to move ever again that was kind of the yeah and we've had enough of that yeah because we moved well we left la in 2008 and then by 2012 we lived on three continents wow and works at four different places four different companies and you know it's myself my wife and it was our three kids at the time so it's you know it's a lot for for the children so we want to move again and my my brain said well you know Disney and Blue Sky and all of these other studios they work in places that don't have tax credits so you know if we start an animations video we can survive if we actually sell something don't have to we don't have to go at the whim of you know governmental policies really it's kind of the plan no yeah exactly well that's fair enough so a bit of a tech question again about what are your thoughts on the cloud how it's changing things change things has it it it has definitely changed things and it will keep changing things I still feel like I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to the cloud I don't know i love the cloud I love the idea of the cloud that's part of that yeah I struggle with with containing costs in the cloud that's my struggle and so as soon as that nut is cracked I think we will we will jump in with both feet because it's such an amazing it's such an amazing opportunity but yeah my my brain doesn't quite understand how to not bankrupt myself when I go into the clouds well maybe you could speak to amy yeah well I mean we should right yeah yeah we say that but we have used GridMarkets you know to burst into the cloud and so it's we're kind of like 50 50 right now where we have a certain level of infrastructure here in the studio but we also use the cloud when we need to so it's really yeah I mean there's as with all of these these tech things it's it's not going away and it's only going to get better and more achievable and now with covert the you know the the lure slash not not even lower but just the remote work seems to be a thing which is actually achievable now whereas it was probably achievable before but just because of the you know what's happened yeah yeah so do you want to explain explain about what you know what's happened at odd studios over the past where are we 16 months now the pandemic yeah I mean I've you know well we're still here so that's a good thing I felt like endemic took the wind out of our sails as it did with a lot of studios I think we felt like we were getting some momentum with projects so then the pandemic came and everything just kind of slowed down but we were kind of made through and now things are picking up again but yeah there's definitely a new it's in it's a new world right so yeah now you have you have artists basically wondering whether or not they should ever come back into the studio and you know and and I mean it makes sense for me too right there's a lot of there's a lot of people who who live downtown because that's they were close to you know in whatever city they were in in the world and now they're looking around going wait if I can work from home why does my home have to be in you know one of the most expensive cities in the world why can it yeah somewhere else and so yes we have to deal with that new reality I think and it'll be interesting to see where the industry goes in the next few years but you've still got a office space and a studio yeah yeah we still have an office space downtown Vancouver yeah it's actually funny because some of the our staff you know the artists that we have now I'd say a fair proportion of them when we hired them their first question was can I come back into the office can I stay there can I you know can I come in every day is that fine we're like yeah that'll be fun yeah because you know it's again some people stay in a small one-bedroom apartment and the last thing you want to do for the rest of your life is stay in a small one bedroom yeah absolutely and you know I I've always found that people in this sector are really sociable as well you know and there are there are artists and developers in in other sectors who aren't so you know I think I think that's great that people people want to come back into the office as well so just for us sorry just before we move on from that point like I worry about the the new artists right anyone coming into the industry now that I think is really a thing that we don't ever want to do away with right we never want to go to all remote studio because I mean how you learn it's it's the relationships you form it's the the people you meet it's it's what you learn from just standing behind someone watching them work at their workstation and seeing the the decisions they make while they're working and if we if we go fully remote and everyone's working at the zoom you lose that yeah definitely I think yeah yeah and also client-facing as well I mean even though you want to produce your own projects but you know you do have in others then you will have clients and they want to see people and they want to sit and talk about things so so that's a great segue it's like I primed you to say it because my next question was going to be that you mentioned that you started with AutoDesk so when did you shift to Houdini and why and how did you climb that learning curve oh actually no I said well I went to an oldest expo oh okay I learned 3d studio release 3 by myself and then I went to a silicon graphics I think they call it the silicon studio I think this was my yeah my only training which was two weeks worth of 3d studio I think or something but no as soon as I started the industry they dropped me on Houdini 0.9 which wasn't even the full like 1.0 release yeah I've been using yeah since then yeah and we've been doing that ever since so these questions are coming in from the audience so excuse me reading them so I'm thinking of starting my own studio and would like to know what skills you think are essential for success a willful ignorance as the reality of the situation here and a desire you know it's not it's not easy and I think whatever you do you're going to have to learn a ton of new skills right there's a there's a whole host of things that there's a whole host of questions that you haven't even thought of asking that you need the answers to when you start your own business but honestly for us the the best way to figure those out was to start the business right that's that's the thing so if you have a passion and a drive to do it then you should just do it that's kind of my advice really yeah no it's kind of like having a child right everyone says well I'm going to wait till I'm ready I'm like there's nothing you'll never be ready the only way to get ready is to have a child that's like right so yeah it's kind of the same thing where you just yeah when you're in there working then you know you start learning what you don't know and then you figure it out really quickly so yeah and there's never a book that they give you when having a child or starting your own business that has all those answers so well no and even if they do it the answers don't really make sense until you go through it yourself right yeah absolutely so another question is what was the most difficult scene you have had to work on difficult scene yeah oh man that's a long history of I think probably the one that jumps to mind is the ripd which is on my rail which I say is the the movie with the finest visual effects that no one ever saw because it was such a weird movie and I don't think it did very well and but wow yeah the effects were the effects were great the characters were the digi doubles were amazing done by r h but yeah one of the the way the the everyone died to the ghosts I guess they were whatever they were that you know when I got to rnh they were on version 150 of the concept art of that and they were on version I don't know 95 of the effects like dev work and then when I was and then when I got on the show we we kind of piled in and you know grabbed a few effects artists and we sat down and we tried to figure it out and and I think we went through a whole bunch of versions before the director finally approved the actual effect that we landed on so that was the hardest just and mainly because it was just one of those things where you know I keep calling them the hand wavy effects right where the directors are like well I want this and then they can only explain it via you know waving their hands around a lot but there's no real concrete anything and that was that was probably the prime example of one of those right which is the director wanted something and the only way you could figure it out was to try and kind of get inside his mind and figure out what he was going to see and then and then showing that to him otherwise everything else was just kicked back so yeah excellent right so thank you mark that's been really informative and entertaining actually as well so I think you know we've covered a lot from technology to running a business and all those things in between so so we're gonna end up now there is a promo code here that you can use the next webinar is on September the 14th there's a link to the Oracle site and if you have any questions email support so again thanks to mark well two marks anthony for today and we will see you again in September

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